president of americans for tax reform and robert reish, former secretary of labor for president bill clinton and the author of "beyond outrage." none of the three of us are beyond outrage, grover norquist, which is why i keep having you back. the situation it seems to me as an impartial observer here is that both sides have now made fairly ludicrous offers that they know the other side is never going to accept in a million years. that does beg the question, grover, why bother, given that both sides know where they need to move, why the games? >> well, it's not clear that both sides know. the week after the election, president obama was asked do you have to have the higher rates or could we have deductions and credits and he said he was open to negotiations. three weeks later, after thanksgiving, he shows up and all of a sudden there's a line in the sand on rates that had come out of nowhere, so the president seems to be moving the goal posts in a deliberate effort, i don't know, to extract something, to push people over the fiscal cliff. something's going on and it's not clear because he's n